I would never put my crypto savings on centralized crap like BSC, Tron, EOS and similar. The network secured by 21 validators effectively appointed by CZ - what’s the point pretending it’s crypto? Might as well go and play with stonks on fintech apps.
I personally agree with both positive and negative feelings related to Binance Smart Chain.
We all know that the decentralization level is not comparable between Ethereum and BSC: the first one has been tested since years while the second one went live only few months ago.
As the value proposition is similar, we can assume that BSC has cheap transactions due to low volume compared to ETH and similar problems might come once the masses move to BSC.
If our goal here is to improve Idle usability for new users, L2 approaches like Optimism might be a better long-term solution to make transactions economically sustainable. At the same time it’s true that a good portion of DeFi-oriented funds will move to BSC, especially low budget investors. If this is a temporary solution (and funds will have to return to ETH once BSC will be congestionated), Idle might focus on L2 integration instead of spreading the efforts on other adventures.
All together, we could better define pros and cons of this idea, with the aim of understanding if this is a short or long term bet and which benefits the Idle protocol can achieve.
I agree 100%, IDLE’s goal should remain improving usability for new users. And L2 solutions like optimism will come eventually, which is awesome for ETH ecosystem when the time comes. And of course, IDLE only needs ETH to be extremely successful and will capture billions of TVL just focused on ETH alone.
But that’s not the main point I’m trying to make. Binance will only continue to expand at a extremely fast pace. In just a few months, there has been billions of TVL locked up in their DeFi ecosystems and these numbers will just continue to grow extremely fast, and it’s not just from low budget investors. Also, I don’t think funds are just going to massively flow back to ETH once L2 solutions are finally released. IMO, money will stay where the APY is best, which will be competitive on both chains.
Binance Smart Chain works of hybrid model of PoA and PoS. Because of this, scaling or congestion will likely never be an issue and will always remain fairly cheap. I get that some say its not fully decentralized and they wouldn’t use their chain, but reality is, many ppl that are entering the space don’t care about that. We’re just a tiny percentage of people compared to mass adoption. Users just want cheap, easy, fast, secure way to make $.
Binance is strategically placing themselves to become a powerhouse to compete against ETH and they will be successful. This is why I had brought up the companies they acquired, to try and show you that. Binance card, binance pay (which was just released today), swipe acquisition for regulated global payments, BUSD backed by PAXOS and NY state department of financial services, etc. Its all for a bigger rollout they have planned, which they’re getting to rollout now.
They are going to start a massive campaign and will suck in millions of users into their ecosystem that are not yet in crypto. Those users will be using their DEFI solutions and cards.
ALL I’m saying is that, their chain needs a rebalancing protocol. As soon as IDLE gets traction, there will be copycats on their chain very very fast. This is potential of billions of DEFI TVL being missed on if that’s the case.
I get that ETH will be #1 powerhouse, but from a business standpoint, why would you risk losing potential billions more DEFI TVL? Doesn’t make much sense imo, but im not a dev or business man.
- We need to spend extra money to hire dev support or for grant
- Binancechain is fairly new and doesnt have same reputation as ETH
- Binancechain is not fully decentralized due to their hybrid system
- We get first mover advantage as first rebalancing protocol on their chain and capture billions extra of DEFI TVL
- Binancechain is designed their system in a way, where they make it extremely easy to make ETH projects easily compatible with their chain.
- They have 100mil grant that team can apply for (even if you have existing project on ETH). This will allow you to have the funds you need to do what you need to do. Plus they will help with free marketing, devs, connections, and anything else you need to be successful.
- You allow easy usability for users who enjoy both chains and give them a choice
- Binance bridge easily allows you to go from erc20 to bep20 extremely easy and cheap
ANYWAYS. I already had someone question me if I work for binance LOL. And I hate to sound like a shill, but all I do is research and keep up with blockchain stuff. ANd i see what binance is about to do. And it just makes so much sense to me to start when the process seems fairly easy to do.
I’m holding IDLE for the long game and can see you guys being extremely successful. I will continue sharing ideas I have, even if I sound like a shill. I’m just going to hate it when I see a IDLE copycat on binancechain lol. But I guess we’ll see how their ecosystem looks down the road, but by then it will be too late. Either way, IDLE will be successful without them, but jut had to share the Idea. Just honestly thought it would bring extra value to IDLE token holders and overall ecosystem.
It’s awesome to see your contribution to the forum, and see you share your ideas.
I hadn’t looked into binance smart chain (BSC) much before but from what I can see this looks possible from a technical level. Since the (BSC) is EVM compatible there doesn’t need to be much rework. Except the rewriting of parts of the ILendingProvider code [[Link]]. From a governance side the IDLE token should remain on the ETH chain, for voting etc, but perhaps there could be some sort of cross chain liquidity mining program to reward idle users on different chains (Maybe staking??). In terms of value for the ecosystem, the fees from different chains would need to be brought back onto the ETH chain (can be done through the Binance Bridge).
In terms of lending protocols for other chains, I think that IDLE should continue taking its current approach. Using only high quality lending providers with proven security history. I think the security considerations which IDLE provides is what sets it appart from its competitors, and I would like to see this ethos continue when expanding to other chains.
At a high level I support this idea, and would like to see further discussions on lending providers which IDLE could integrate with. From my limited research I’ve found venus.io, C.R.E.A.M, and ForTube to be popular (according to defistation). Would be interesting to see where this goes. Nice work
IDLE is DeFi… its protocol is decentralized.
That being said, users are mostly unaware of the differences between lending providers (including risks and blockchains) and simply (in most cases) ape the best APY for their assets that they can get.
I don’t oppose integrating lending providers from other blockchains IF (like @8bitporkchop mentions) they have a good track record and do not require too much rework.
Nothing stops IDLE supporters (including users that are on other blockchains) to make a proposal in the forum and request a temperature check vote for their favorite lending providers.
The war between BTC and ETH never made users any money, quite the opposite.
I think if IDLE can bridge other lending providers (regardless of their origin blockchain) that creates good Karma and also profits for IDLE depositors. More options.
All of DEFI will be interconnected eventually: Polkadot, Binance, Cosmos, etc etc. ALL of it will be meshed together eventually. It will be beautiful .
It’s not about competition/war, it’s simply about business and making sure we’re first mover in a chain that is going to suck up millions and millions of new users in the very near future. Giving those users what IDLE offers would be very fire. Also, starting off with binance integration will also likely make bridging into other chains a lot easier. Also since they are forks from other successful platforms, it can be basically considered “safe”
They key projects to intergrade on BSC are
- Venus (fork of compound and maker)
- BIFI (fork of YFI)
- CAKE (fork of Sushi)
- Cream (fork of compound)
Venus will likely be the leader and have billions of TVL fairly soon. BIFI is like yearn, but it auto-compounds users funds for them every minute or hour depending on vault.
Also. I know team is still thinking about alpha, but they are also about to open up lending to more assets (not just ETH like I originally covered). Just FYI.
Anyways, just figured I’d share my views on this, but of course can be viewed way more in depth and can get community vote in case were missing any. But I think those are key for now. And like unicorn said, it helps create good karma, more options, and extra profits. Would love to see IDLE as “THE” rebalancing protocol for all of DEFI. My dream lol.
@falcone Saw this great thread about Binance Chain. Made me rethink whether we should actually prioritize this agree all.
Very nice thread. Most people thoughts have been shared, so it’s just up to the team and governance to take the next step. Whatever happens, I’m cool with it. Just glad we all got to at least talk about the pros and cons in this forum.
Some key points to remember:
Even though binance is not fully decentralized, since they run on a POA and POS hybrid model, their reputation is on the line. One small incident that occurs on their chain, users will lose trust fast. So its in their bet interest to keep their chain running smooth.
Binance is and will continue to be the biggest money maker of all crypto. The things they have set in place with swipe and venus, will ensure they stay dominant in the space and continue their explosive growth.
They’ve made it extremely easy and safe for ETH platforms to intergrade with their chain. Literally requires very very little work.
IDLE will benefit from this growth, not just from their userbase, but the $/rebates they get for being a successful chain with traffic (which will happen because tons of users will park their assets in IDLE)
Majority of users coming in don’t care if platforms are fully decentralized, as long as it has good reputation, fast, cheap, and easy to use.
BSC isn’t going to go away, no matter how evolved defi and crypto gets. They’re here to stay and its not just a fad, whether ppl like it or not, especially with their Swipe/Venus acquisition. Its a strategic move made by binance, which many will understand why later on. They’re about to suck in millions of new users, which IDLE can tap into. Also, swipe is about to release their AMM which seamlessly allows you to do cross chain swaps between eth/bsc and other networks and very cheap (I only bring this up, because it might be good thing to keep an eye on in case IDLE does want to intergrade binance stuff)
Just a list of platforms that I think IDLE should watch…
Once again, I’m pro ALL blockchains that is driving adoption. Not a binance shill. I can care less if we do. I just think it would help with IDLE growth dramatically. I personally research crypto all day long for years. I just share the facts, stats, and growth. I get there are cons as well (which I talked about before this post). But just had to share thoughts one last time nicely laid out.
EVEN IF WE ONLY STAY ETH, ITS COOL!
ALSO JUST FYI. It might be good for team to check out FTM (Fantom) - Lots of stuff coming out soon, cheaper fees than BSC, easily to intergrade, crosschain swaps are cheap, already heavily tied in with yearn and curve in someway. So it might be good to start taking a look (if not yet already doing so). Big things are brewing indeed
personally, i would love to have Devs from Binance Chain showing Idle some love here in the forum. For me its important to see that there is talent and interest on both blockchains.
If that happens it would be a game changer imho.
I think we should have a serious look at BSC. It opens the door to a new audience, and would be a first mover advantage.
From my limited tech knowledge I understand that it’s relatively low effort, but the size of prize for the protocol could be enormous.
Would love for the League committee to share their views on this. It feels like it could be top right box (effort vs value) on the roadmap?
If we could get a grant from binance to do the work it would be even easier. Should be possible I bet.
Many of devs on binance are eth devs. We don’t really need feedback or devs from other projects there IMO. They’ve designed their chain in a way VERY SIMILAR to ETH; EVM, solidity, truffle, remix, etc. This is why you see many ETH projects adopt BSC very fast, while still staying on ETH as well, which gives their users two options. It requires almost ZERO work and can be done very easily. They designed it like this for a reason, for adoption and growth. Also metmask address stays the same and doesn’t change for users, only need to add different network, which takes less than a minute.
I honestly think implementation and integration into their chain/different DEFI platforms wouldn’t take long.
And I get that the trust and reputation isn’t safe for all platforms yet, but remember a lot of their big platforms are forks from successful and reputable chains from ETH: Yearn, sushi, curve, compound, Maker.
From the time I wrote this proposal:
Venus TVL went from 350mil to 4.7 Billion
And the above is just one example:
AcryptoS: is fork of curve, yfi, and sushi
Beefy: Fork of yfi
Venus: Fork of maker and compound
Others ive listed already, but just saying again for easy reference. These are ones I think are good fit for IDLE to use at first. A lot of them have audits almost done or finished.
If we do this binance integration, we can just add high risk score for the protocols on the binance side in the meantime, to still warn users that it’s new, but at the same time still offer users the ability to partake in the auto rebalancing IDLE has to offer. I think this tactic will bring much positive attention to IDLE overall, even on the ETH side.
Anyways…I’m done sharing stuff and giving my opinion on BSC. I think enough has been said. Looking forward to league/teams thoughts on the matter.
Here’s some extra stuff in case anyone is curious:
I avoided to reply to this thread on purpose because I’m not a supporter of BsC, but now I just want to drop my 2 wei.
I think that it’s definetly not as easy as it seems, because besides having to redeploy and reinitialize everything in BSC, we would also need to create new wrappers (like the aave v2 one) for each lending protocols supported and effectively create a new keeper server to perform the rebalances there (this is without considering IDLE distribution at all).
In addition, in my opinion this goes against what we all have been working for the last 2 years or so with DeFi and Ethereum ecosystem in general which is a open, permissionless and decentralized financial system (for real). That’s obviously only my point of view.
That being said, it’s good to have such debate and it’s governance decision whether to setup a snapshot poll and eventually a grant for this or not.
I second this and am strongly aligned with William’s thoughts here as well.
I’m not a supporter of BsC and would prefer the protocol to stick with Ethereum which is an open, permissionless, and decentralized protocol
Appreciate your builds. What are your thoughts on the challenges of scaling / cost of ETH right now. I think many of us are aligned in principle, but in practice ETH gas costs during the 2 years of building were not prohibitive.
I noticed that Yearn are building or testing on Fantom to reduce costs and improve user experience.
Outside of wait for ETH to scale, have you looked at alternatives that could address some of the challenges faced by ETH like this?
Genuinely interested in the teams views, and perspective on how it will impact yield from the protocol to everyday users we might want to attract.
I agree that gas prices are way higher that what we experienced in the past years and it’s creating more and more difficulties. There are solutions that can be implemented in the near term, but we need for sure community contributions for this.
First thing is that with some of the changes proposed in the community roadmap (change in the fee and governance tokens mgmt) gas costs should be reduced.
Also for L1, batch deposits have been introduced recently and potentially there are also other ways of acquiring idleTokens (idleDAI, idleUSDC, …) that can be added.
For example we can partner with a fiat on/off ramp to offer direct USD to idleToken conversions (and something similar for redeems), or we can setup a protocol pool (with funds from fees) which periodically mints idleTokens and lets users buy those tokens from the pool (instead of minting them which is more expensive) and same can be done for redeems.
At the moment I don’t have more ideas besides gas optimizations, but I’m sure there are
other ways too and we will do more research.
L2 solutions are something that we should research more too imo eg https://optimism.io/
About Fantom I need to read more about it because I’m not really familiar with it
I’ve pulled my funds out of Alpha Finance on the news of their BSC collaboration. It’s my new litmus test for how trustworthy a project is.
I know I created this post and had several pro views, but after giving some thought, I just wanted to say this one last thing.
I agree with William and others 100%, we should avoid BSC completely.
But I do think we should give a serious look at Fantom Chain and should make it a priority as well. Cheaper than BSC, just as easy with EVM and similar tools, truly decentralized, and gets faster as platform grows.
Also, Yearn, Curve, Cover, and many more are already building things on there. This will make buildings things on there a lot smoother and will open new opportunities/ideas.
We should create a Proposal/Grant and have league push it to the Fantom discord. I’m pretty sure someone there will be open to pursuing it while team gets to focus on core roadmap milestones.
I was gonna create a new gov forum post for this topic, but figured it wasn’t needed and good to leave off this proposal with these closing thoughts in case others down the road view this forum.
What about Polkadot and Kusama? Kurara on Kusama and Acala on Polkadot are the first DEFI projects on those chains and look promising given all the advantages of the chains. It’s still early but those chains follow IDLE’s DEFI principles do they not?
The only advantage to binance chain would be trivial integration. Unless devs from those chains are willing to do all the work, it’s not worth it to dilute our energy focusing on some other chains when there is still a lot more work to be done to be dominant in ethereum.